joining us, dick durbin, assistant majority leader, the senator from illinois. senator, thanks very much for coming in. we just heard from grover norquist, several republicans on capitol hill this week have said they would consider defying his pledge but for some of them, raising revenue just means getting rid of loopholes or capping some deductions, not raising tax rates or letting tax cuts expire. is that good enough? >> well, i can tell you the president has set a goal, $1.6 trillion in revenue or taxes over the next ten years. that's about 40% of the $4 trillion deficit goal that we have. that's the same thing that simpson-bowles had, 40% revenue. so the only way you can reach that, incidentally, is to allow the rates to go up. just this idea of we're going to take a look at the tax code, change some credits and deductions, you can't come up with enough money. >> so any deal will have to include at least some hike in the tax rate. >> i don't think there's any other way to approach it. that's why the president has taken this position. if we're going to make s